Hello Everyone,

Sorry for writing in English, but I still don't speak German.

My name is Pavel, I currently live in Canada. After seeing large scale model trains I decided to abandon H0 and to move to Scale 1 or in the worst case 0. It is a very good idea some investigation to be made before buying for not wasting money and everything else....
I am not a "steam" fan so I would like to start with a model of one of the mass produced and used German diesel locomotive - V160 or BR215/218.
So I see that the prices of brand new models of Marklin and KM1 are comparable. In the German e-bay this locomotive can be found second hand for a very good price, but not KM1 - they sell the KM-1 one even more expensive than the manufacturer price.....I know that KM-1 are Brass or Messing premium, limited quantity models but is it fair to pay so much money for KM-1? I am little bit more details-oriented - I like better reproduced cab interiors, opening doors etc. in which fields Marklin definitely looses.....But I also have heard that KM-1 and other Brass models are for mainly display and Marklin is for "driving" on the tracks...And that Messing is mainly for steam-lovers. I also already read that KM1 isn`t perfect too - there are technical problems with the motors, sounds, smoke generators, decoders etc........And at last, but not least, Marklin is still made in Germany and in Hungary, but KM-1 - in China, in spite of the very high prices of the latest one...I recently heard that even Fine Models or Wunder (both are even much more expensive) is already made in Asia.

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of both kind of models? And what are the impressions from MBW Modellbau?
I am sorry if I cannot see that these topics were already discussed in the forum, but in my case the language is a problem....

Regards

Pavel

Hi Pavel!

In short: KM1 and Märklin offered different Locos of the V160-Family. The Märklin model first appeared in 1994 (5571). KM1 built the V160/Class 216 about 25 years later. If you do not care about the differences between Class 216 and 218 (projected as V164) but appreciate fine details you should go for the KM1 Loco.

The Märklin didn't offer much detail, even for the 1990s. In my opinion, the loco still does look nice and details can be added, though there won't be opening doors. I do have the 5571 (Class 218.1), which can be had for less than € 600,--. It's a nice basis if you want to add detail yourself. On the other hand the gearbox/wheel drive is quite noisy and needs a complete rebuild if you want to get it really silent. As far as I know this is a problem with all variants (85571 Class 218.1 classic red livery ("wheathered" look), 55711 TEE livery, 55712 Class 218.3 blue/beige livery, 55713 Class 218.3 limited edition blue livery, 55714 Class 218.3 classic red livery). Also, the Class 218.3 variant does have the proper bogies but the roof is the built like the Class 218.1 which is wrong.

The KM1-Model appeared last year, and while it does look nice there are also some flaws concerning the proper details of the chosen variants. It's main issue is that the frame of the fans was built using a thin foil glued to the frame. If this gets into contact with the smoke fluid used to simulate the exhaust gases, it will eventually come of. It is hard to describe, so have a look for yourself (you will find a lot of pictures of the loco in this thread):
https://s1gf.de/index.php?page=Thread&po...7972#post167972

MBW once built the V200.1/Class 221 which was built from plastic but had nice details. There seem to be some issues with the wheels, but I do not have much information here. I only know that MBW promised to deliver new bogies but so far didn't do that. The new models of MBW are brass built and have an excellent level of detail. Problem with MBW is that you can't be sure that a model is actually built until the first prototypes are shown. They have often been criticised for their communication with customers, but the models they actually deliver seem to be fine.

As far as I know, they all produce the gauge 1 models in Korea, since the amount of manual labour (for example soldering) is immense.

I hope that my notions are of any help - it's been quite some time since I actually wrote something in english.

Kind regards

Dirk

P.S.: If you have a chance to buy in Germany, consider registering with spur-1-treff.de. You will find much more realistic prices there than in ebay.

Thank you very much, Dirk!
This was exactly the reason I am asking. I have heard that Marklin never focused on more details even in scale 1. Which is a crime for this large scale. And they didn't change nothing in the model from 90es till now? Until now in H0 I worked with Roco and Fleischmann. But when you see a model at 1 or 0, your glance regarding the railway models become totally different. I don't care about the differences between BR216 and 218. The questions appear because there are many models that when you receive them, they are a huge disappointment for the price that you have paid. Yes, I will register in spur-1-treff.de. There probably I should negotiate shipment outside Germany....There is a video in YouTube from the factory how KM-1 is made in China. As far as I understand, the comments for the video aren't so good...

Hi


As far as I know ALL of them ( KM-1 , MBW , KISS , Spur1-AT ) are developing and constructing their models in China!!
Except the high-end-producer DINGLER ,WUNDER and Fine-Models which are still producing in South Korea .
That and the fact of a rather low running sample of models as well as the fact of even a higher standard due to detailing and quality
made those brands different to the producers mentioned before.-- But most of the MÄRKLIN- scale 1 -models are made either in Hungary , Slowenia
or at least China ! --So Märklin isn`t really to consider a "German made" -brand as it used to be in the old days !!
There is only ONE German made in scale 1 : BOCKHOLT , but that is a league of itself ..You might spend at least about € 15,000 - 20,000
for those German handmade models , made of steel (!!) instead of brass. At least there is PROFORM of Switzerland which plays about in the
same league but their main focus is on steamloco-models ...

Greetings
Pierre

Hi Pavel,

you should give Märklin a bit more credit. The class 218 was in production till 2005 and they had a different focus at the time. Nowadays their products can absolutely compete with Kiss, KM1 etc. Maybe you should have a look at Märklins latest diesel loco V320/Class 232:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfO8p8dQrkA

The price has of course reached similar regions. I still like the older models, they can be purchased for relatively small sums and you can add as much detail as you like. And sometimes too much detail makes the models quite delicate. Since I do like to run my models on a layout I find extremely detailed models impractical. Of course the new models are absolutely impressive to look at!

If you do like the V320, you could also ask this shop (where I also order from time to time):
https://www.modellbahn-seyfried.de/wbc.p...o=97&tid=000018

If you look for something less pricey, you migtht also consider the V188:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8UQ7ZOrgcc

https://www.modellbahn-seyfried.de/wbc.p...o=97&tid=000018

Kind regards

Dirk

P.S.: I checked with s1gf.de, obviously you and Pierre are right, KM1 and Kiss produced in Korea around 2005 but moved the production to China lateron.

Hello again,

After very significant efforts, I am already a proud owner of the KM-1 BR216 locomotive, I found it at a better price of around 1200 EUR. I didn`t see the problem with the decorative rails around the fans in the pictures from above. For an initial place to run, I took a circle of 16 Marklin/Hubner tracks at 1020 mm radius - as mentioned as minimum radius for this locomotive and the latest version of the Marklin Mobile station.
But another issue came...For not being "alone", I took a Wunder 15066 three-axle "umbauwagen" combined passenger and bagage coach. For this coach in the specifications give a minimum radius of 1394 mm - which is not typical, because these are relatively short coaches. So, is there any solution to put the locomotive and the coach together at 1020 mm radius or I don`t have a choice but to replace the tracks with 1394 mm radius ones?

Thanks again!

Regards

Pavel

Pavel,

I can't tell you about your radius problem, however you need to absolutely consider to get another of those "umbauwagen".
They were reconstructed from older coaches, mostly Prussian ones, and combined in pairs by use of special couplings.
You can combine them as follows:
2nd class + 2nd class
2nd class + 1st/2nd class
1st/2nd class + 1st/2nd class
2nd class + 2nd class/baggage
1st/2nd class + 2nd class/baggage

Take care to always keep the toilets at the outer ends of the pairs, except for the 2nd class/baggage coach, where the baggage compartment must be turned to the outer end.

Naturally, there are always exceptions to the rule and very very exceptionally, single coaches could be seen, but these were really very rare examples and were due to special circumstances.

It's just that when you are as detail-oriented as you claim, these small details should be heeded. Many people who buy this expensive high-end gauge 1 stuff are completely ignorant of how to put together a decent train...

Have fun with your new model railway,
all the best,

Guido

Pavel,
The problem with the "Umbauwagen" is the 3rd axle in the middle. With a scale frame there might not be enough swing for this axle to negotiate tighter curves.
Regards

Thank you very much. Of course, I consider to buy at least one coach more. I know from the books about the German railways that they always have been used "one plus one", in pairs, never as single units, even if there were another types of coaches in the train. But I will see when I will have an opportunity to do this because these Scale - 1 models are expensive even for the German standard of life.

Guido, I know what you are saying - most of the people that buy such high-end brass models, buy them only for the vitrine, not to run them on a layout, just to show how wealthy they are. Furthermore, there is a opinion that these models are for vitrine collection and not so suitable for running, like the regular production models (Marklin, Roco, Fleischmann, Brawa.....). And for a realistic layout in Scale 1 you need a space like a half football playground....

HHi, I am also one who once moved from HO, first Märklin, later two rail DC, to gauge I. It was roughly 10 years ago when KM1 announced the class 50 of the DB, though until the seventies everywhere to see it is one of my favorite models. Honestly there is a big difference between HO and I. HO is nice to look at and great for operating a layout. For I it is vice versa. To operate trains in I your really need a lot of space, but for me nothing exceeds watching a big steam engine moving with sound (and steam) along a layout. But it is hard to have the prerequisites for doing that. Thus gauge I often forces you to limit your wishes. This must not really be a constraint. Big engines do not really look nice if they are squeezed through a 1020 mm radius. So if this is your limit look to the smaller items. There are a lot of them, from rather cheap to beyond expectations. If you are not looking for steam engines and do not want to exceed your price limits look to the smaller locos from Märklin like the Köf, V 36, V60, V 100 etc. They are perfect for an every day use on your layout. And if you would make up your mind to also have a look to steam engines the classes 55 (beware of the first models of this type offered some 40 years ago as they are very noisy), 56.2, 64, 75, 94 etc. mostly are available at reasonable prices and, according to my experiences, are reliable, but generally poorly detailed. And there is one constraint: Märklin uses its home made mfx-system. All other brands on the gauge I market prefer DCC, and it is not guaranteed all of their models can also be operated with mfx. Thus, if you could imagine to get captured by the gauge I virus take this into account. There are beautiful small and mid size models, unfortunately generally quite higher in price compared to Märklin, mostly steam but also others, from brands as Steiner, Kiss, KM1, Fine Models, Dingler, Wunder etc. (order does not reflect any preference), which mostly are operable with mfx but sometimes with a reduced amount of functions. When starting with gauge I reflecting at the beginning what shall be the outcome would avoid a lot of disappointment and loss of money. By the way: If you are a little fit in electronics you can transfer Märklin models with mfx to DCC by changing the build in electronic equipment. It would be very helpful if you are also fit in handcrafting as sometimes you have to to some adjustments inside the models to get the new equipment in. This can also highlight the shift to gauge I: You do not just buy a model. You can very much do to make your very special one.

A small, unfortunately negative update regarding the Wunder coach. After the unboxing, I saw that one of the four end platform doors is missing, the hinge beds for this door have been "eaten" by some tool probably. And the door itself was "playing" around the box. So, until here with the tale that these expensive high-end brass models are perfect, and the prices given for them are absolutely worth. I am sure that this is not due to the transport because the coach arrived very well packed by the merchant, with perfect soft bed in the box. Anyways, I didn`t want to return the model back to the shop, and after three hours of efforts with fine pinsetter and a small screwdriver I managed to fix the door and put it on the place in a perfect manner. But it cannot be opened anymore and will stay permanently closed. Keep in mind that Wunder is a high-end company in the most expensive segment. Otherwise, the model is perfect in details, there are even labels inside ("Don`t open the door before the train has stopped!"). Simply the production of such stuff by low-qualified Chinese workforce is a mission impossible. The other totally unacceptable think is the lack of detail user guide about the model. Everything is a small leaflet in German only about the history of production and the use of these coaches by the railway administration (all of this is already written in the books and even on Wikipedia) and which functions to use to switch on and off the lamps in the passenger saloon, the luggage section, the toilet and the platforms. Nothing about how to mount the couplings and the other small gadgets in the bags - knorr break connections, heating tubes, etc. There is no information either if the model can run with them or they are only for display. Until now, the best user guides for railway models I have seen are these provided by Roco.

Regarding the KM-1 locomotive, it has FineScale wheels, not NEM. It means that If I want to extend my layout with switches into the future, I have to buy them from KM-1 of from one another expensive company (I didn`t remember its name) - the regular Marklin switches will not work - the locomotive will derail at them....

Hi Pavel ,


well it is quite unpleasant to buy a quite expensive "High-Tech-model" which don`t match the "standard" you might expect !!
However this could happen but in these cases you should contact immediately the dealer or the producer ( WUNDER ) .
I don `t know where you ordered your model of the "Umbauwagen" but since I know Mr. WUNDER personally ,
He will solve your problem either by getting a new model ( if it s available ..) or maybe get you some money back for your inconveniences.
And by the way WUNDER - models are NO products made in China by "low-qualified Chinese work-forces" but made in South Korea by
very experienced und skilled modell-makers !-- But mistakes could happen even at " High-End -products "..( i. e . Jaguar or RR-cars as well !!)

greetings

Jean

Hello John,

I bought the coach from Modellbahn Seyfried. Anyways, I fixed the door pretty well, it already cannot be seen that it has been repaired. It is not a big deal that it cannot be opened - the other three can. You are completely right for the mistakes - they happen. And Wunder (Km-1 too) should put more detailed user guides, furthermore not in German only (many companies think that the German-language market is enough for them and even their websites are in German only).

Hi IKAR

concerning the use of Fine Scale track: KM1 usually offers locos with different wheelsets. It might be worth considering to buy NEM wheels from KM1 (if they are still available) or via spur-1-treff.de (mostly private trading of Gauge 1 material). It could save you many troubles in obtaining suitable track material.

Regards

Dirk

Wunder is announcing BR218 for the next year. As far as I understand, the difference between BR 215 and BR218 is that 218 is little bit more powerful and it has electric train heating generator, BR215 has a steam heater instead? For this reason, are the differences in the machine room windows and in the ventilation grills. Is this right? Regarding the engine sound, it is the same for both locomotives, I have heard them in Youtube?

Hallo IKAR,
yes Br215 has a steam generator for waggon heating. The Br215 was build with 2 different motors, Br218 exist with 4 different motors. Some Br215 - locos have the same motor like Br218 locos.
So only these locos have same sound. There exist 12 cylinder engines and also 16 cylinder engines.
Volkers.

So, I participated in a small circus with the KM-1 locomotive. It would be funny if it is not tragic....My boss kindly asked me to make something like a party with trains in Scale -1. I, of course, agreed. We prepared tracks, mobile station, etc, on a big table. However, during the removing of the locomotive from the box, both bogies fеll down from it. In other words, the locomotive remained without bogies. We checked that the connection between the bogies and the body is with four very small Philips screws for every bogie and both screws from every side of the bogie should be reinforced with two metal plates. All of them, of course, fell down too. We tried to screw-up the bogies with the screws into the respective holes but the holes don`t have any carving. In addition, the connection between the motor and the bogies is with two H-shaped cardan shafts made from low-quality plastic. They also fell down with the bogies. I cannot imagine how these plastic shafts would put into movement the whole 5 kilos locomotive. At the end of the ends, we were not able to make the locomotive to start moving. This is a locomotive with 4 digits price in Euro.... I gave it to the boss as a stationary, vitrine model, to shine at his table and I will look for something different for me. I think this is the result from "Made in China". So, be very careful even with the brass models, when you give your money, and don`t think that the good is expensive and that the expensive is good respectively...Not everything is so black, of course, the locomotive is very well detailed, but for moving it on a layout the thinks are completely different.

Hi IKAR,
i think that your problem is only a single problem!
What you tell us is untypicly for KM1.
Normal KM1 have top qualiti in the middle prince range.
My expirienc is: KM1 is the best, you can pay.
I own some steamlocos and all of them will be perfekt!
Greatings from blackforrest
Uwe

I completely understand that you cannot believe that this could happen with a KM-1 locomotive, but it happened. It was a really painfull experience, but unfortunately nothing can be done. Maybe this locomotive they have been built in more than 1000 copies and I am the "lucky" customer with the defect one. Anyways, now I have two options - to look for another unit of the same KM-1 locomotive or to wait until the Wunder BR218 will be released - maybe Wunder will be better - I don't know.....

Hi IKAR!
... Shit happens...
If you have a cance to buy a Wunder BR218, do it!
Wunder-Modells will be always perfekt, not only in optic, in quality always too.
About your Class 216: I know if KM1 build 1.000 Lokos and one is wrong and this one ist yours... it's not helpfull 🤦‍♂️!
Enjoy and dort be angry about your slow duck!
Greatings from Black Forest Uwe

So, in other words, Wunder is definitely a better option compared to KM-1?

Hi IKAR,
that's right!
... you got what you pay...
Wunder is always pefect but it is expencive! Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)
Ae6/6 from Lematec/Modelbex
Re4/4ll from Kiss
Freightcar from Wunder
Regards.from Blackforest Uwe

Everything at this scale is expensive, even for the standard in Germany....

Hi IKAR
I also have good experiences with Kiss.
Premium is then Dingler!Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)
Tank car from Wunder, absolutley pefect!
I owne two of them.
You buy cheap, you buy twice😉!
Uwe

Absolutely, even if I didn't expect this from KM-1. Regarding Kiss, I am thinking about the first version of V160 - Lollo, but maybe Wunder would be better....Dingler no doubth, but the price there is a nightmare. Lematek even worse - one DR BR232 - Ludmilla, also used in Bulgaria, is 10000 CHF, which means 10000 EUR....Fine Models is similar....